A single mom writes that her spirited five-year-old “has found a new voice and physicality” lately, calling her names, hitting, and taunting her “to try to get a rise.” This mom attempts to remain unruffled and contain her anger and sadness during these episodes, but she’s wondering if her controlled response is making matters worse. Janet offers six steps for responding to her son in a more connected manner that she hopes will alleviate the behavior. She then applies these same steps to two other situations where parents describe how their kids are rejecting their efforts to engage and saying hurtful things: One whose toddler daughter is grieving the recent loss of her grandmother; another whose 6-year-old daughter reacts to her mother’s corrections with self-loathing statements like “I”m stupid, I don’t want you to love me, I’m just the worst.”
Transcript of “When Our Kids Reject Us (A Step-By-Step Response)”
Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.
Today I’m going to be addressing three questions from parents all around the topic of their child rejecting them, saying strong words to them or about themselves, showing that they’re angry or very upset, and pushing the parent away. These parents are all concerned about the state of the relationship they’re having with their child and are asking what they can do to respond to these behaviors in a manner that gives their child what they need and helps them to be comfortable and feel close again. And the first of these parents asks for a step-by-step. So, although that’s not always my m.o., I came up with a step-by-step that I believe applies to all of these situations.
Okay, here’s an email that I received:
I’m the single mother of a spirited and loving five-year-old boy who until recently has been fairly straightforward to parent. Within the last three months, however, he has found a new voice and physicality that has totally thrown me. When we have a disagreement, he now threatens me with doing physical damage to throw or break something, calls me all the names under the sun, hits me, and generally taunts me to try and get a rise. I acknowledge his feelings and let him know I’m there while he’s having these strong feelings, but that I can’t let him hurt me or our property. Once I’ve removed any danger, he will continue with verbal taunting for up to 20 minutes. It takes every ounce of my being not to react with anger or sadness at these often sustained episodes. And in all honesty, it feels so disingenuous to move on from them without a huge acknowledgement.
At the moment, I’m just trying to act unaffected and calm, unruffled as best I can. But I’m wondering if this is making matters worse. I will often go back and discuss the events when things have calmed down, but my son is seemingly so unaffected that I don’t even think he remembers what he does or says. My question is, how can we move through a long episode of nastiness and downright mean behavior and give it the right level of attention? Or should I just continue to act unaffected and hope the episodes start to cease?
A step-by-step would be the most helpful to me, as I know that consistency is key in these cases, and with so many emotions running through me, I find it hard to remember what is next in this sequence of events.
I can’t think of anything that might have triggered a change in behavior three months ago, other than it coming towards the end of a long school year. His teacher says he doesn’t exhibit this behavior at school, but that he does have a tendency to whine and show frustration quickly. He has a good relationship with his dad who lives in another city, but they don’t see each other more than every couple of months. His grandparents —my parents— are daily figures in his life and he’s very close to them.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Okay, so before I get into offering a step-by-step for this parent and the other parents that have written to me, I want to talk a little about the most important element to embrace when responding to behavior or just being with our child: This idea of unruffled. What does it really mean? It’s about coming to the understanding that the stronger the behavior, the stronger the discomfort in our child. And that this isn’t personal, it’s something our child is going through.
Children have a very immature way, even at five years old and and even older than that, when they’re really uncomfortable, the way that they express that is very immature. So it may be personal in the sense that children are asking something from us through their behavior, they’re needing something from us. But they’re not articulating clearly what they need because they don’t even really know themselves. So this isn’t personal and a child means none of this in their reasonable brain.
And this is something that we can help to mend, always. That’s what children want us to do. They want us to mend with them and they want to feel close and comfortable with us, just as we do with them. So we have all of that in our favor. We know that in this case, this boy’s using these words to express his pain and his hurt, which is what’s directly underneath anger for our children.
So it’s this perspective that we want to dwell on and practice visualizing and practice in these types of situations repeatedly, not perfectly. Getting this in our system so it begins to feel natural. That’s what unruffled is. And even when we’ve practiced it a lot, we might still not go there directly every time. I still don’t, and I’ve been practicing this a long time. I get thrown off, I take things personally, until I give myself that moment to say, This is not about me. It’s what my child’s going through. So that is the homework, if you will, for us to do.
Unruffled doesn’t mean being static or walling off to our child, stuffing our emotions. Because when we do those things, children feel that and they have this impulse to keep trying to get their messages through. It can feel like it’s a brick wall. But it’s much more disconcerting than a brick wall because there’s all this vibration of feelings within it, within us, that our children are picking up on. And that’s more discomforting even than if we blew up at them, shouted at them, because they feel the rumbling of these feelings, and yet we’re showing them something else that doesn’t match that. So they have this impulse to keep poking at that: I know you’re in there! Why are you hiding?
This parent’s instinct is spot-on when she says, “At the moment, I am just trying to act unaffected and calm, unruffled as best I can. But I’m wondering if this is making things worse.” So, yes, it’s making it harder because it’s acting, and our children know that. When what they need is for us to be open and honest and in the present moment with them. That’s how we build trust. What this parent says is, “I acknowledge his feelings and let him know I’m there while he is having these strong feelings, but that I can’t let him hurt me or our property.” So I don’t know exactly what this is sounding like, but to me it sounds kind of removed, explaining. It’s a more distant way of acknowledging. Instead, we’ll want to practice acknowledging in the here and now, from this unthreatened understanding of our children’s behavior.
So here’s a step-by-step for this parent:
First: Be prepared, do the homework. Working on our perspective, because that’s going to direct our actions and decide our feelings. If we see a hurting child, it brings up totally different feelings in us than when we see this mask on the outside, which is really mean and ugly and hurtful. Another part of being prepared and doing the homework is, if this is repeated behavior as in this case, we know that something’s up. We know that he’s expressing something that he needs to express, but he’s not quite getting what he needs around that. He’s not quite getting the response that he’s looking for, unconsciously. And he’s still a little child who adores you. Nothing he says, no matter how awful or scary, can threaten you if you can see beyond this ugly mask to that hurt boy there and how uncomfortable he must be to say such awful things. No child wants to be saying that to their mother. So that’s one, being prepared, doing the homework.
Two: In the moment, block physical behavior as best and as confidently as you can.
Three: If there’s a chance to have eye contact during these explosions, try to be open, soft-eyed, as empathetic as possible. I know it’s hard sometimes. Maybe nodding your head ever so slightly. Seeing the hurt behind the mean guy behavior, connecting with that.
Four: If there’s a break in his shouting, just reflect back what he’s saying. So we’re staying in the moment with him, acknowledging right there as it comes: “It feels to you like I’m the meanest person ever. You hate me so much right now. Those are angry words.” Remember, in his heart he means none of this. In fact, the strength of these words are a reflection of the depth of his love and his need for and his trust in the parent. I think it will help you a lot to gain perspective, if you can try to figure out where this might be coming from. Could it be that he witnessed his father being verbally abusive? There’s something going on here.
Five: Don’t talk about, “I can’t let you do this behavior.” Especially if it’s repeated behavior, because you’re showing him that by blocking him, you’re demonstrating I can’t let you do this behavior. And he already knows that this is unwanted, wrong behavior, so that kind of correcting can take us off track.
Six: Let it go. After it’s done, don’t rehash unless it’s to make a helpful, non-judgmental plan. In this case, that might be showing him that we care and we want to understand what’s going on with him. “You’re getting really upset lately, saying some really harsh words that I don’t think you mean. I know you know that’s not okay and I’m wondering if there’s something going on that feels really hard for you. Anything you want to share with me?” Opening those doors, that might be the plan in this case. Because you both know what happened already and he knows it was wrong of him, but his feelings broke through. They were that strong. We might never know exactly what’s happening with our child, but we can trust that it’s something. The feelings are real. Letting it go, this is one of the most generous ways that we can show love to our children, trusting their awareness and forgetting their errors, which will be many.
And if this really goes on for 20 minutes, I think it will be shorter when she’s letting him know that she hears his message, really hears it, and isn’t intimidated by it. But if it’s really going on a long time, then we don’t have to stop everything and sit there. We can go in the kitchen, we can be on the stove. We can say, “I’ll be right back.” Still holding that space and that attitude. Nodding at him, letting him know, Yeah, I see you. All of those ways of really hearing him in the moment, while we carry on.
So this is challenging, I know. But 99% of it is the mindset, is that unruffled homework: working on how we’re perceiving the situation. Yes, feelings will still come up for us, but we can even acknowledge those to ourselves, knowing that those are our feelings that our child is tapping into, but they belong to us. They’re not our child’s fault any more than what our child is going through is our fault.
All right, so let’s see how this same approach works with another parent’s issue. Here’s one I got in an Instagram message:
Hi, Janet- We have four beautiful children, ages 6, 4, 2, and soon-to-be 9 months. Life has been beautiful and crazy all the same. This last year, with our youngest joining the family, we’ve had many ups and downs with what seems different adjustments and behaviors that each child has exhibited, different tantrums and acting out on a variety of timelines.
Most recently, our six-year-old daughter has been vocalizing a lot of self-deprecating statements. For instance, if she’s in trouble for something and we’re correcting her, her response is more often, “I’m just stupid. Don’t love me. I don’t want you to love me. I’m just the worst.” We typically try not to harp too much on these words because I don’t want to give them too much power. But I may have responded in the past with something like, “I can’t let you talk like that. Just like hitting, words can really hurt and I don’t want you to hurt yourself like that.” I’ve also been curious and asked, “You seem so mad. Why are you so mad, do you think?” To be honest, much of what I say in these instances never really feels right. I really don’t know how to react in these scenarios.
Today, though, took me by the most surprise. My daughters (6 and 2) and son (4) were playing in the playroom while I was nursing the baby upstairs before placing him down for a nap. I heard things getting pretty rowdy and sure enough, they were getting out of hand with extra-rambunctious play/roughhousing. When I corrected them about it, they agreed to help clean up the mess. And my six-year-old daughter seemed particularly upset and she said, “I just want to kill myself.”
This is the first time I’ve ever heard her speak that way. And to be honest, I was just so upset, but tried to keep my cool. When I asked why she would say that, she says that she is sad and just wants to die. I don’t know where she would’ve heard anything like this before. Talking some more, I said how I understand how she can feel sad, I get it. But just because you did something you weren’t supposed to do doesn’t make you bad. My job is to teach you what you can do and not do to be safe. We tried to talk about it more later after she wasn’t upset anymore, but I still feel so dumbfounded that she even would say this. Have you seen this type of behavior before?
I do believe she’s getting accustomed to feeling different, bigger feelings. She just finished kindergarten and a new school this year as well, and she may not have the language to really express what she’s feeling. But I am afraid that if I approach this in the wrong way, I will only exacerbate it. Any and all advice is very welcomed and appreciated. Thank you.
Okay, so I want to go through this step-by-step, but first, whenever our child mentions hurting themselves, killing themselves, it makes sense to check that out with a mental health professional.
So let’s go through this:
One: being prepared, doing the homework. In this case it’s a little bit easier because, whereas in the first case we didn’t understand why the boy was suddenly acting this way, this is a little more clear because, as this parent knows, this is a huge adjustment. Even for the oldest child who’s already been through this a couple of times with two other siblings coming into the family. Being six years old, one might think —I know I thought this with my oldest when I had my third— Oh, well, they’re going to be okay. I just have to worry about the younger ones more. But actually the oldest one can become kind of a repeat experience, touching into that wound again of, Oh, here we go again. I’m going to be pushed aside a little more. Although we don’t mean to do that, it happens, just with our time and our ability to give each child attention. I’m going to have to share my parent, my piece of the pie just got a little smaller.
So knowing that, yeah, she’s sensitive right now. You know, when we’re feeling uncomfortable and less sure of ourselves and sensitive that way and someone tells us we did something wrong, it can feel a lot worse than when we’re kind of feeling good about ourselves and we can maybe handle that kind of criticism. She’s showing that she can’t, she’s having a hard time.
And if I was sitting down with this parent, I would love to know more about how she’s correcting. Because even that word “correcting,” it sounds judgmental: You’re wrong, you did this wrong, you have got to stop. And while we do want our child to get those messages about their behavior, openly correcting them is often not the best way. Stopping them, letting them know for sure that we can’t let them do this, but not with a big criticism, a scolding or whatever. That just sort of takes a hit on their feelings about themselves that goes beyond just being helped to know what’s right and wrong and what they can do and not do. And I imagine this girl must have already known that they shouldn’t make a big mess and get out of control like that, but it happened with all of them in that last situation.
So understanding this girl’s experience, yes, sometimes the way children express that is saying these awful things about themselves because it’s kind of an exaggeration of how they feel. And children tend to take things all the way, you know? So it’s maybe sort of hyperbolic, but she’s expressing pretty clearly that she’s hurt.
That’s number one, being prepared, doing the homework.
Number two: blocking the physical behavior as best as we can. So when we come in and we see that mess that the children were making, “Oh gosh, you know, this is not okay. Come on, can you help me? Can you help me out here, putting it back?” That’s the way I would correct. We’re all on the same team, guys. You guys messed up and you know it. So let’s clean up the mess. And that is how we will get more cooperation because children don’t feel that we’re pointing a finger at them.
You know, we hear a lot and it’s almost become this pat thing to say, connect when you correct, but really, correct and connect needs to be simultaneous. We’re correcting through a connection of knowing our kids know what they’re doing, that they got out of control. And that’s all a part of the correction, it’s not two separate things. So that’s number two.
Then three: if there’s eye contact, being open and soft-eyed, empathetic. So when she’s saying, “I’m just stupid, don’t love me, I don’t want you to love me, I’m just the worst.” That is alarming, right, to hear. And the really alarming one is, “I want to kill myself,” of course. But if we can know, because we’ve done the homework, that this is one of the ways that children share their hurt, especially as they get to six years old, five years old, they’re a little older and they have words and they use them. She’s saying, I’m really hurting deep here. She’s not meaning, I don’t want you to love me, when she says that or that she’s just the worst or she’s just stupid. I don’t think she believes that in her heart, but that’s what she feels in that moment.
So instead of being shocked by that— and in the past, this parent said she said something like, “I can’t let you talk like that, words can really hurt.” So yeah, that was just a little bit of a mis-response to her saying, But I am hurt and I am saying these words and see me here. Instead, this is sort of a correction: “I don’t want you to hurt yourself like that.” Or, “You seem so mad, why are you so mad?” That’s getting closer there. But I don’t know if I would use the word mad to describe this, necessarily.
What’s always safest is to go to number four: if there’s a break in shouting or the feelings, just reflect back what they’re saying. That’s safe and easy to remember, right? We don’t have to come up with an analysis of it or explain why she shouldn’t do it. Just, “Wow, that makes you feel like you’re stupid and we don’t love you and you feel like you’re the worst. That sounds sad, my love.” Just reflecting in the moment like that, which is actually, I think, easier to remember if we can be in that truly unruffled space. All I have to do is say what I’m seeing, say what I’m hearing, just let that be. I don’t have to put a label on it or an ending on it. Even with physical behavior, we can say, “You want to hit, you’re showing me you’re really feeling like hitting me. You want to hurt me.” That’s a way of responding that children can really receive and they feel completely seen and understood in that moment because we’re not taking it to any kind of adult place. We’re just meeting them where they are.
So then number five: to not say, “I can’t let you do this behavior,” which this parent said. And this parent is also, like the other parent, very insightful. Her instincts are spot on saying, I don’t feel like I’m getting it right. It doesn’t feel right, what I’m saying. So yeah, when we’re in the groove, it feels right. Again, we’re going to go back and forth, back and forth, but every time we nail that it gets a little more familiar the next time, that groove. And we can get back there again, not always, but more often. So don’t talk about the, “I can’t let you,” especially with things like that, that we really have no control over. What she says, it’s not something that we can stop. We can’t put something over her mouth and make her not say those words, unfortunately.
And when she says the thing about wanting to kill herself, I mean, I think that’s, I’m still trying to get through to you. You’re not seeing me. Maybe this will reach you, for you to see how much I’m hurting. So there, “Wow, you just don’t want to live anymore. You wish you were not alive. That’s so scary to hear.” But I’m open to you. I want to understand, but I’m not in a rush to understand, Why are you telling me?!? Why are you feeling like that?!? I am just focusing on being open and present in the moment. I think it can be scary for us as parents to be that honest and open and just say all the things that we would rather somebody didn’t say, just putting it out there in the open. You said this, you feel this. Yikes. That’s scary stuff for a parent to hear. And yes, this is scary when a child says something that serious and you know, we absolutely want to look at the whole picture and make sure that that isn’t more than just her reaching out to be seen.
And the way that we’ll know that is by our response of seeing her and welcoming her to share that, doing the opposite of what our impulse might be, which is to stop her from saying those scary things. Instead, going in the complete other direction: Tell me all about it. Tell me whenever you feel this way, I want to know. And then if that’s still persisted, then we would know that there’s really something serious here that we need to be concerned with and seek other help for.
And then, six: Let it go. Don’t rehash, except to make a plan together from a place of, I’m on your team. In this case, if there’s a moment with just the two of you after that, you could say something like, “I feel like I’m not able to give you the attention you need lately. Or that the way that I’m responding to you is hurting your feelings, and that’s the last thing I want to do. Is there something I can do to make it better?” And then depending on what our child says, or maybe they don’t say anything because they don’t know themselves, then we can see if we can do that or not. But that’s the only type of rehashing I would do.
Okay, here’s one more:
While I can’t always live up to the ideals you share, they are always my north star and have helped me form such a wonderful connection with my incredible daughter. I feel she’s a well-adjusted, wonderfully expressive kid who is securely attached to her parents.
However, five weeks ago, my mother, whom my daughter adores, was in the hospital with a perforated colon emergency surgery. Although my mom had cancer, this surgery came out of left field and for three weeks I was at the hospital every day. I still made sure to spend at least three hours with my daughter daily in a present, attuned way. Still, she knew something was wrong with grandma. She kept saying, “Mommy, hospital, care, grandma.” And I told her where I was going. Plus, she felt her schedule change when I wasn’t there as much.
Then my husband took her away to see her other grandparents for three nights. She’s never been away before and her sleep completely unraveled. She could only fall asleep by falling asleep right on daddy. She’d also never been away from mommy that long.
Then the very day they returned, my mother died. That was two weeks ago. One thing you should know is that although my mom had cancer, she always appeared young, vivacious, healthy, and strong. This came out of left field for my daughter and I never even got to the part where I planned to slowly tell her her grandma was really ill. We thought we had several years to go, as her cancer drugs were working very well. So it’s a shock for all.
Since then, our daughter’s refused to let mommy put her down to sleep at night. She frequently pushes me away, says, “Go away, mommy.” And this has blossomed into not even letting me pick her up when she’s finished napping or sleeping, demanding daddy all the time and shrieking and tantruming whenever daddy isn’t there. Whereas we used to cuddle every afternoon after her nap, now she sobs hysterically and asks me to leave her alone. I do. I do my very, very best to be nonchalant, but in a very loving way, letting her know I’m here for her and I’m ready to play if she likes and it’s her choice. Eventually she gets up and wants to play, but seems only to feel truly okay when daddy returns.
She’s never had tantrums before, she’s never preferred daddy before or pushed me away or said, “Go away.” I’ve put her down almost every night of her life. It seems in some way she blames me for losing her grandma or associates me with the bad feeling she has about it.
She talks about grandma a lot, is very upset about this weird death thing. I have been very straightforward about explaining that grandma died and her body stopped working and I’m so sorry and we will miss her and be sad and mad, but also still feel her love in our hearts and all that. We talk about it every day, but only when she brings it up. I follow her lead. I’ve read her the book Something Very Sad Happened several times, always at her request. It feels like we grieve together when I read that. I allow her to see me cry or be sad about grandma, but I do shield her from seeing me sob hysterically and stuff like that, things I think would be burdensome to a child. We have laughed together over funny things grandma says, and even sat in silence after reading the book. In other words, though I am personally devastated by the loss of my mother, I have tried to really role-model a healthy approach to grieving.
And though I have to admit it’s very painful to be constantly pushed away from my daughter at the exact moment I lost my mother, I do my absolute best to be nonchalant in the sweet way you always role-model. Like, Sure, go with daddy. It’s like picking chicken over fish. I admit she has probably picked up on my hurt here or there, but I really try not to burden her with that or manipulate her in any way. I understand she’s going through something.
I don’t blame her for any of this, obviously. It seems like probably a normal reaction to this terrible loss in her life. She used to see my mom twice a week and was just crazy about her. But I really don’t know what to do to make it better for her or to be included in her sphere of affection and safety again. Thanks so much for reading this terribly long letter. Thank you for everything.
Ah, yeah. First of all, I want to say I’m so sorry for this parent’s loss. So yes, here as in the last question, it’s pretty clear that this child is feeling this transition that’s happened. And, as children are, she’s especially tuned in to how the adults are feeling about this, how her mother is feeling. That can almost be stronger for a child than the feelings they have about the relationship. Because to them, yes, it’s a loss, but they don’t really understand the implications. They don’t have a frame of reference, it’s more confusing to them. And the more that we can be plain and simple and truthful, the easier it is for them to process it. And this parent is showing wonderful empathy and instinct for how she’s caring for her daughter. Being very, very loving.
A couple of things stand out to me. First is that this parent concludes, “It seems in some way she blames me for losing her grandma or associates me with the bad feeling she has about it.” That part doesn’t ring true to me. To me it feels like, and of course I can’t be a hundred percent sure, I sense it’s that kind of brick wall feeling again, for this little girl. That she senses there’s a lot going on inside for her mother, but her mother isn’t quite expressing that to her in the moment. She gave this wonderful explanation, “we will miss her and be sad and mad, but also still feel her love in our hearts and all that,” she says. That’s fine, but children are again picking up on this whole devastation that’s going on inside this mother. And I believe that’s what’s making her uncomfortable around her mother. It’s that the mother’s sitting on a lot of feelings that she’s not sharing and it’s disconcerting.
And then when she is with her mother, she’s doing this really healthy thing, actually, that children do so beautifully, which is they will reflect back to us our insides and they’ll put the feelings they’re picking up from us on the outside. So when she’s saying, No, no, no!, and has these tantrums and refuses to be with her mother, I would stand tall and face that if you can. I mean, this mother’s going through her own thing and number one, she obviously needs to take care of herself. She’s being so gracious about her daughter and trying to protect her from these feelings. But I believe that maybe the simmering inside of such strong feelings in her mother is uncomfortable.
And the way to help her through that is, I believe to actually stand by her when she’s pushing her mother away and doing these steps. Blocking physical behavior. If there’s eye contact, being open, soft-eyed, empathetic, maybe nodding her head slightly. If there’s a break in the shouting or the tantrum, reflecting back what she’s saying: “You want me to go. You just want daddy. You’re not comfortable with me.” Letting it be okay for her to share that and not shying away from it. It’s nice of her to say that I role-model nonchalant. I think, though, that it’s not so much nonchalant as unthreatened. Unthreatened, but you could still say, “Ouch, you don’t want to be with me. But you know what, I can hear that. You can tell me that. I’m still going to be there for you.”
Now if it gets too much for this parent, yes, of course, let daddy do it. But remember, every time we’re doing that, we’re accommodating. We’re agreeing with our child that, Yeah, you need to be with daddy now and not me. She’s still going to be expressing these feelings to you in this kind of awful rejecting way, right? That’s going to happen for a little while until she processes it through.
And I love how this parent said she’s trying to show her a healthy grieving process. Wow, she’s putting a lot of responsibility on herself. Because a truly healthy grieving process is your human grieving process. Not trying to make it smooth or right or hit all the right notes, because each person has a different grieving process with each type of grief that they’re experiencing. The healthiest grieving process is to express it and share it. And hopefully she is, with other people besides her daughter. But even with her daughter, I believe the key here is for her to say in the moment, when it comes up, “I miss my mom so much right now. This makes me want my mommy.” Opening that up a little bit more. I don’t believe this parent will lose control and get hysterical and scare her daughter that way, but just opening up some space to show that. So it’s not this mysterious, uncomfortable thing for her daughter. Letting her in, in the moment, when the feelings come up for you. “Ugh, I just got a pang of how much I just miss my mom doing this random thing.” Right? That’s how our grief often comes, is some random thing happens that triggers us. It’s safe to share that with your daughter. In fact, it’ll bring you much closer to each other, as being honest about feelings does.
So I hope some of this helps, and I want to thank all these parents for trusting me with your questions. And I actually want to also ask if the parents whose notes I responded to today could consider maybe giving me an update. An honest update, doesn’t have to be, Oh, it all worked. But whatever you did with this, if you did anything with it, because it helps others learn and it helps me learn how to communicate better, which is all I’m trying to do.
Please check out some of my other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in.
Both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting. You can get them in e-book at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com and in audio at audible.com. And you can even get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the LINK in the liner notes of this podcast.
Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.