RIE expert Hari Grebler joins Janet to discuss her respectful and surprisingly simple ideas for helping our babies to sleep. Hari’s positive approach begins with babies and applies to toddlers as well, ultimately building a foundation that serves our needs and those of our children throughout their lives.
Transcript of “Sleep, Baby, Sleep (with Hari Grebler)”
Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.
Today my guest is one of my most favorite people to talk about all things parenting with: Hari Grebler. She was my very first parenting guide, the person who first encouraged me to see my baby with new eyes, as a whole person, deserving of respect. And this changed my life. Hari’s been a RIE associate—that’s Resources for Infant Educarers associate—for over 35 years now. She studied with Magda Gerber, like I later did. She is also a Pikler pedagogue and she’s trained as a Waldorf early childhood teacher.
She joined me here on Unruffled a year ago for a very popular episode, “Every Child, Even a Tiny Baby, Deserves Time On Their Own.” Hari teaches weekly parent-infant and parent-toddler guidance classes, she consults privately, she holds workshops. You could check out all her wonderful offerings at harisriestudio.com. And I really love what she wrote on her website bio right here: “Through Magda and RIE I became familiar with the world of infants and learned that respect could be communicated through everyday interactions.”
And today, Hari has promised to share with us on sleep, beginning with infants. How can we set ourselves and our babies up for healthy sleep right from the beginning? Hari often has surprising ideas to share, so I’m really looking forward to this.
Hi, Hari. Thank you for joining me here again.
Hari Grebler: Thanks for having me.
Janet Lansbury: I was hoping we’d talk about a topic that tends to be controversial for some reason: sleep, including sleep training and what that means. I love how you’re always able to cut through things and give this really commonsense advice. But I don’t even want to call it common sense because it’s really more like uncommon sense, I feel. And I, for one, find it very comforting. It’s always spot on and simple, kind of like the way Magda Gerber always shared.
I’ve really appreciated your feedback over the years. And now you have this wonderful Instagram account, Hari’s RIE Studio, where you offer uniquely brilliant, warm advice about a lot of things, including sleep. So what’s some of the basic advice that you like to give parents around sleep or things that you followed yourself?
Hari Grebler: Yes. I mean, I only will give advice that I tried. I just remember when my son was about five months and I thought, Oh my God, when’s he going to sleep? And I thought, Oh, do I have to get help? And then I thought, Well, I just have to do what I told other people to do over the years and sort of what Magda taught us, too.
My very favorite and best tip ever in the world is from the very, very beginning when you see your baby tired, even the littlest baby, to say, “Oh you seem so tired. I just saw you rub your eyes. Come, let’s go get ready for bed.” And that’s it. I wish people would just take those moments to say that to their baby, all the different ages. Because they’re bringing awareness to the child, a simple awareness, and they’re having an action with it. I see you’re tired and now I’m going to pick you up and let’s go get ready to rest, ready for bed. There’s a giant payoff. No matter what you do after that is not as important as doing that initially.
Janet Lansbury: Because you’re approaching it very positively, for one thing.
Hari Grebler: Yeah. It’s not like, Oh, this is a bad thing. Well, this is the other thing that I think happens is, before you even have your baby, sleep sounds scary. I mean, people scare you, I think.
Janet Lansbury: Right. You’re never going to sleep again and all that.
Hari Grebler: Yeah, you’ll never sleep again.
Janet Lansbury: And well, that’s true.
Hari Grebler: You’ll never sleep again. You need to have this, this, and this. You need blackout curtains. You need a sound machine. You need the snoo. And so with all that, you’re inundated, it gets so hard to come just to, What would I do and what would my baby like? It just removes us away from knowing our child before we even have a child.
Janet Lansbury: Right. You’re putting all those things in between you instead of trusting that this is a natural process. Obviously we’re all given this ability to go to sleep, it’s how we survive.
Hari Grebler: People want to sleep. Remember Magda, just how much she loved sleep? She was always late for class. And not just loved sleep, but loved her bed. And that’s how it can be for babies too. They can love where they sleep, wherever you sleep. And I’m not saying it has to be here or there, I think that’s the personal decision of the family where the baby sleeps. But I think that people need to take a look at the baby as a whole person that gets tired, that’s awake, now they’re hungry.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah. And getting in that practice of observing, because even before the eye rubbing, which is so classic you almost feel like it’s a cartoon that your baby’s rubbing their eyes because they’re actually tired. But before that, and I was never good at this, there are all these signs. Your baby is a little more dazed the way that they’re looking at things or their movements are slowing down or they’re kind of speeding up. Those early signs that come even before the eye rubbing and the yawning and all of that, that it’s best to catch.
Hari Grebler: It would be great if you can, but I always say eye rubbing because that’s sort of universal, that people can start there. Because the other things that you’re talking about are a little more subtle. But for sure maybe an hour after the baby wakes up, they’ve been playing and then it’s not going so well for them anymore, right?
Janet Lansbury: Yeah. They’re not focusing.
Hari Grebler: Or like you say, they’re just gazing out, so it’s important to look, to observe.
Janet Lansbury: Or it’s just that time element, which is so short. Okay, they woke up, they were fed, they had their diaper changed, and now they’re playing. And then it’s like, okay, boom, they’re tired, it seems like two seconds later sometimes. So knowing that that’s going to come probably way sooner than you think also helps.
I wanted to go back for a second to what you were saying about “you’re tired.” Even when I hear that, I can hear my parent’s voice saying “you’re tired” in that kind of I’m really disappointed in your behavior and you’re being a jerk way. And I think my kids sometimes took it that way, although I never meant it that way. It’s like, Don’t say I’m tired! I’m talking when they’re a lot older than infants, of course. I wonder sometimes if “tired” is like they’re copping out somehow, they’ve done something wrong and they’re tired and you’re exposing them or I don’t know. But I got a little pushback for that sometimes. And so I think I used to say more, “Do you feel sleepy?” I don’t know, for some reason that word, maybe because I had a bad feeling about it and I never used it the way my parents did, but somehow it came off like that anyway.
Hari Grebler: I guess that happened to me too. It’s like, oh, she’s tired, all your behaviors. I feel like that’s much older, that’s like a five-year-old or a four-year-old. But I think this idea of “tired” being positive and starting from the beginning makes a difference. It could also be, “Oh, you’ve been playing for a long time. I saw you rubbing your eyes. Come, I’m going to pick you up and let’s go get ready for bed.” Or rest, whatever it’s going to be. And it’s just taking those moments before you pick the baby up to let them know, Oh, I noticed that. I noticed things aren’t going so well for you right now. Come, let’s go to bed. The language is your choice. But I think older kids do take offense if you’re blaming all their behaviors on whether they’re tired or not tired. Yeah, I agree.
Janet Lansbury: Which could actually be the reason for their behavior.
Hari Grebler: Yes, it could. Well, I mean, if we want to go there too, I get calls, well, I had one the other day, it’s a good example. They were explaining that she’s hitting them a lot and doing this and doing that. Then so I ask, and that’s what I always ask, is my first question, tell me about her sleep. And of course it was about sleep. And there’s nothing else you can do with behavior until you sort out the sleep, is what I think.
Janet Lansbury: Because that’s part of the dysregulation, they’re just not themselves.
Hari Grebler: And they can’t help it. It’s not fair to try to discipline or do this or that with a kid that is tired. So the goal of that call was to take a week to notice when do you see her first being tired? Whatever sign that is for them. That helped me, I know, when my child was about five months, watching and seeing when they were tired, that things just weren’t going well.
Things were also so simple. Keeping things simple, that’s another important piece too. Keeping life simple. So if you’re going here and going there and doing so many things, then you don’t really get a chance to observe. And if you take time, even if you’re not always just at home, but let’s say just for a few weeks you stay at home and you see after they woke up from their nighttime and then they go to play, you’ll see clearly when they’re getting tired. It’s really obvious.
Janet Lansbury: But it’s not something we can really compare to how we feel because we underestimate how much they give to every experience, how much of themselves. They play with their whole bodies, they go to an event with their whole bodies, and it is so much more exhausting than the way we as adults compartmentalize and kind of do this and use this part of ourselves.
I remember recently a parent asked me about, she was appalled, she said, we had this amazing birthday party for my child, who was I think five years old. They’d spent a lot of money, they’d done all this planning, it was like the best of everything. It went beautifully. And then the next day their kids wanted to go do that bouncy, the parkour or whatever that is, their favorite thing. And she took the girl whose birthday it was the day before and her brother, and they were just terrible. They were misbehaving, they weren’t listening, they were screaming, they were doing all this stuff. And she couldn’t believe it. Look what I did and look what happened!
And I believe I wrote back and said, they’re exhausted from what you did the day before. And this is the really unfair thing about children is that they get topped out way before we would. And so we can’t base anything on how we’re feeling. We really have to be observant of them and know them and also just be ready and be prepared that they’re going to be tired when we least expect it, maybe.
Hari Grebler: It’s really common that somebody will say, I took them out, I did this, I did that. I got ’em this, I got ’em that. And then when I said, oh, they couldn’t have that, just like total meltdown. It’s like, well, they’re so exhausted, they’re so tired. And then adults respond with “You’re ungrateful.”
Janet Lansbury: Yeah, because it seems that way.
Hari Grebler: It does look that way, but it isn’t that way.
Janet Lansbury: Right.
Hari Grebler: They’re overstimulated, overtired.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah. So let’s talk about more simple. Well, first of all, I want to hear about the five months without sleeping. Knowing this approach so well and then your own child not sleeping. Did you just kind of wait it out, or what did you do?
Hari Grebler: Well, I think that when they’re really little, a rhythm will come, but it’s not there from the beginning. So I think that it was really natural what was happening for me and for my son. And I remember going to my friend’s house, she was in our RIE class. We went to visit, I took Arthur and her baby was there too. And she’s like, “Okay, she’s going to have her nap now.” And I’m like, what? And then she said, “Yeah, well she had her two-hour nap in the morning and now it’s her next nap.” And I was like, how did you do that? I was just jealous. And I thought, what am I doing wrong? And she told me this book that she read and was going by this book.
I actually had the book, but I’d never read it, I kind of got it more for work. I came home and I read it and I thought to myself, no, I’m not doing that. I’m not going on this person’s rhythm. I’m going to find my son’s rhythm. I’m not going to impose a rhythm on him. And so from that day forward, I just watched really carefully. We had a rhythm of getting up in the morning, being fed, very much connecting together, diapering, changing, and then he would go to play. And this started from a very early age. So it was around five months where I knew I had an hour. After being very close and very intimate with him, he would go to play, and I had about an hour to get a coffee or eat some breakfast or something.
But at the hour, I had a little chart, I know that’s kind of nerdy, and I just watched and observed and I saw when things weren’t going so well for him, that was sort of his sign. And then maybe an eye rub or a yawn, I’d see a yawn. For a week, every day I ticked off and it was like 9:00 every day, there was a complete rhythm there. So around 8:45, I would go and get him and wind down and prepare for sleep with a little sleep sack or change the diaper, have some closeness, and then he would go to sleep because he was tired. That’s how I found his rhythm.
Janet Lansbury: So you felt like you were working harder at studying that, making the chart and everything, than you had been previously? Or you feel like he just needed that amount of time to even find his rhythm?
Hari Grebler: Yes, I think he needed that amount of time. I think when they’re little, it’s just they’re tired, they’re awake, they’re asleep. I still think we have to pay attention, but—
Janet Lansbury: Yeah, they’re falling asleep and their tummy’s upset and then they’re waking up.
Hari Grebler: Yeah, there’s so many things in the beginning. So it was around 5, 6, 7 months that we really fell into a rhythm that was his, and it was fantastic. It really gave me more freedom myself. And I remember Magda talking about that. People will say, I don’t know if people have said this to you in your class, they don’t want to do the same thing every day, every hour. They worked hard not to have to do that, not to go to the nine to five or whatever. But what they have to see is the more rhythmic the life of the child is, it gives them more freedom to do what they need to do and want to do. That’s what I think.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah, because their child lets go into all these experiences with that confidence of knowing what’s going to happen and this is how it’s going to be and this feels right and I’m used to this and all those things.
Hari Grebler: And I think a really important part of sleep and being able to go into sleep is being very well connected in the first place with an adult. And also having that time, like we talked about last time, about having that inner life, that time to play. A time where someone’s not talking to them, asking of them. I think that all goes together.
Janet Lansbury: Where they’re also free to move their bodies.
Hari Grebler: Yeah, there’s a reason for all of it. You can’t separate sleep from play from caregiving.
Janet Lansbury: And the fresh air, even having a place to play outside is amazing.
Hari Grebler: Or sleep outside if you can. When my son was really little, I mean we had one of those little bassinet strollers so we could put it out in the garden to sleep. That was really nice.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah, I tried to do that. I had a pack ‘n’ play out on our little porch and everybody in the neighborhood was doing construction, it seemed like. I had this romantic ideal from the children at Lóczy, which for people that don’t know is Emmi Pikler‘s center where she had children, and they would all take their naps out, even in the snow or the rain, they would sleep outside and get their ruddy cheeks and had a place that was a covered porch where they could all take their naps. And oh, I just really wanted to do that. But it didn’t work out so well for me, it was more like a frustration.
I think that’s part of it too. It’s like what you were saying before about relaxing into that your child just hadn’t found it yet. There’s so many psychological things around sleep, I find. And I’m finding this now because for myself as I’ve gotten older, sleep is not easy. And I go through periods where it’s really, really hard. I’d never had that my whole life, I was always a great sleeper. One of the best bits of advice that I read, it was at the end of all these other things, like no matter what, wake up the same time, try to go bed at the same time, do a wind down thing. All the things that we know with children. But then the last one was: and don’t worry about it, just let it go. And that’s the part that has helped me the most, being able to let go and not trying to control it, not trying to worry about it, not thinking, Uh-oh, I’m not going to sleep very fast. This is going to be bad and I’m going to need to go take a pill or do something. Really just knowing, Okay, eventually you’re going to go to sleep, you know how to do this. So what if it takes a long time?
Hari Grebler: And I think anxiety is what interferes, for the adult anyway. And for the child, the anxiety of the adult. Somebody trying to make somebody fall asleep, I just have issue with that. There’s a difference between putting someone to bed, however that looks, but just all the things that people do to make someone sleep. So I feel like we go in with they have to be asleep, instead of just in bed. And one tip that I got is all you can do is put them to bed and you don’t make them sleep. And you just continue when they’re tired to put them to bed. You know what I’m saying?
Janet Lansbury: And what if they’re crying?
Hari Grebler: Well, you can be with them. I’m not going to let them just be in there crying.
Janet Lansbury: But do you pick them up or do you let them stay there?
Hari Grebler: I would hold them. A lot of crying before sleep is a release. And that’s something that is important to acknowledge. A five-minute cry sometime, it’s just a big release. And they don’t have to be alone in a room to do it. If you want them in your arms, they can be in your arms. I would tend to have that.
One unique thing about me and sleep is I didn’t used to leave the room. You know how people are like, I’ll put on the machine and close the blackout curtains and I’ll tiptoe out. I don’t do that and I don’t recommend it either. In my mind, if you think about Emmi Pikler’s place where the children were eight in a room or a family that has a room with more than one child, and it’s very unique to us that there’s one person in a room all alone.
Janet Lansbury: And that it’s such a controlled environment. I think that’s that psychological part, too. We’re trying so hard to control it and make the perfect thing, like you said, to make them go to sleep. And that ends up backfiring on us because we’re stressed about it.
Hari Grebler: And the older kid, your older kid has to be quiet and then you’re mad at them and you become the sleep police, sort of. And it doesn’t really feel good to anybody.
Janet Lansbury: No, it’s too much pressure on us.
Hari Grebler: And especially to the child. Someone’s waiting for them to go to sleep. That’s not a good feeling.
Janet Lansbury: And then if it’s not working, we’re blaming ourselves and getting frustrated and all of that is making it all worse.
Hari Grebler: When my son was really little, I’d lay on the bed, I’d read, I loved to watch this process. And we’d look at each other and I would sing maybe sometimes and just be there. With my daughter I would tidy up the room, I’d make the bed. They were in my room for the first year. We’ve turned it into something incredibly precious and scary and hard. And this was a little more lighthearted.
Going back to newborns, when you say, oh, you’re not going to get that much sleep, how I dealt with it is calling it fairytale time. I’m up, I’m asleep, I’m awake, it’s the middle of the night, I see the moon. It’s okay. I’m talking about the newborn phase. And hopefully most, if they can, they’re with the baby. So I’m talking about that very early stage of just letting things be more easygoing around sleep. And not have all the stuff. I don’t know if you have any memories, but I have a memory of driving home from my aunt’s house, it was kind of a far drive, and falling asleep but hearing everybody talking around me.
Janet Lansbury: Oh, totally.
Hari Grebler: Yeah, like a blanket.
Janet Lansbury: And then pretending I was out, so my dad would carry me in.
Hari Grebler: Yeah, yeah, that too. And it was just so sweet. And we take away the sweetness of the home by putting all the other things in. And it’s just like, oh, they’re washing dishes, they’re talking to each other. Oh, there’s someone singing. I hear the dogs barking or the chimes or whatever it is. I know if you have construction going on, that’s hard. But I’m talking about mostly—
Janet Lansbury: Natural sounds, not chainsaws.
Hari Grebler: Yeah. And the siblings and not having to worry. This is the thing, both my kids are completely different people than each other. And sleep was the same for them. They want to go to sleep when they’re tired. And to this day, I mean they’re older, but yeah.
Janet Lansbury: My daughters were like that. My son was a different story, but I did all different things with him because he wanted it and needed it. And I ended up getting into it, lying with him in the bed until he went to sleep. When he had a bigger bed, I wasn’t lying in a crib, I know some people do that. But lying with him in his bed with this little hand on my heart.
And then I was thinking about this lately because one of the things I’ve done, I went through this whole thing this year where I wasn’t sleeping very well earlier in the year, and I get a hot water bottle and I put it on my chest, actually. And it reminds me of when Madeline, my second, used to take naps and she would fall asleep on my tummy or my chest and it was so nice and comforting.
And I mean those memories are precious, I wouldn’t give that up for anything, either of those. So it’s okay to do what we want to and need to do and to give in to certain things.
What do you think about the people that believe that if you don’t train right at a certain time when they’re young, that you’re not giving them what they need or it’s not going to work? Obviously you don’t agree with that?
Hari Grebler: I don’t. And I just see a different way.
I want to go back though, because I love what you just said about how wonderful it was to lay with him. And I want people to know that we’re not talking about how you put them to bed. We’re just saying to notice them from the beginning and see what they need, not what people told you they need or not what a book says they have to have. If your child is too tired, you’ll know. And sleep is as important as food. That’s what they say. And I was going to say too, I’m talking about a rhythm, not a routine that goes by the clock.
Janet Lansbury: Although I do agree with Magda, and I’ve found this of course with my own sleep training that I’ve had to do with myself lately, finding my rhythm, that oftentimes when it’s a problem, it’s because we’ve caught it a little too late. And that’s even true for me. I have a window and if I miss my window, it’s just going to be harder, a lot harder.
Hari Grebler: I know that people say that and I appreciate that you noticed that for you. I did not find that with my kids. But I would do experiments when they got older. We’d be having fun and playing games or something and I wouldn’t say it’s time to get ready for bed. And I’d just wait and see what would happen. They always would say, “Could you put us to bed now?” They’d always ask.
Janet Lansbury: Because you made it into something like, I see you, I see what you need, and let’s go help you right now.
Hari Grebler: And also it was pleasant. It wasn’t anybody standing there, laying there, really wanting them to go to sleep. It’s the vibe. So yes, you can lay there and be totally relaxed and just this is heaven and that’s great. But I think a lot of people do feel that they have to be asleep before anything else could happen. I never had that feeling. You want me to tell you a funny story?
Janet Lansbury: Yes.
Hari Grebler: So I am guessing around three years old, three-and-a-half maybe. and we went to someone’s house and it was that thing where they don’t want to leave, that screaming I don’t want to leave! thing. And so I said, “I’m picking you up and we have to leave.” And it was a real downpour, real storm outside. And I carried him kicking and screaming, got to the car, and then I was able to put him in. And he was mad. And we got home, which was very close, and he got out of the car. And he took his hat, he was wearing a beanie, he just took it off and threw it down in a puddle. And he looks at me and he goes, “I’m going straight to bed!”
Janet Lansbury: Turning the tables on it. Instead of parents saying it, You’re going straight to bed, young man!, he is using it against you.
Hari Grebler: Yeah.
Janet Lansbury: I’m not going to listen to your stories, mommy.
Hari Grebler: Yeah. He’s like going, I am so tired!
Janet Lansbury: That’s what we want.
Hari Grebler: That’s the result of letting them know that you see what they’re all about, what they’re feeling. Bringing their awareness to, You rubbed your eyes or things are not going your way, you’ve been playing for a long time or you yawned and come. It’s inviting. And whatever space they’re going to be in is also inviting. It’s somewhere you also like. So whether it’s your bed or a crib, whatever it is going to be for you and your family.
And not to go on automatic, that’s the worst. I’ve seen people right when they’re born and they think they have to bounce them asleep, and they never even waited to find out if that baby wanted to be bounced. Mine hated to be bounced.
Janet Lansbury: Did you try it?
Hari Grebler: Yeah.
Janet Lansbury: I never tried that. I did try the swing, somebody gave us a swing. And my baby got this look on her face, she just looked really out of it, and it was disconcerting.
Hari Grebler: I’d never had that ball, the birth ball, and I never bounced like that to get my kid to sleep. I just want to say that. I said I did, but I didn’t.
Janet Lansbury: It’s okay if you did.
Hari Grebler: But what I did do sometimes, you know how you kind of bounce, they’re upset, or you hold them like that. Well, he would tell me not to, he did not like it.
Janet Lansbury: He’s like, I don’t want to be dizzy. I’m already upset.
Hari Grebler: And I remember just being pregnant with him, when I went to sleep, he went to sleep. When I woke up, he woke up.
Janet Lansbury: My son was the opposite. As soon as I tried to sleep, he was kicking me all over the place.
Hari Grebler: Most kids are, well this one wasn’t. And that’s why he didn’t like it when I did that.
Janet Lansbury: That’s so interesting how they’re the same person from when they were that little.
So I just want to talk a little about sleep training. And I don’t even really know what it is. People will say to me, like they’re trying to nail me to something that they think is true about me, Oh you believe this or that about sleep training. And I say, because this is how I honestly feel, “I don’t know what you mean by that. Can you tell me what it is?” Then they act like I’m trying to be evasive or it’s like you’re supposed to know what this “sleep training” thing is.
To me, it’s like gentle parenting. What even is that? Oh, I do gentle parenting and this isn’t working. Well, what are you doing? What do you consider gentle parenting? When I started calling this work respectful parenting, that was because nobody knew what RIE was. And instead of me trying to explain that online, I thought, I’ll just say this. But then other people say respectful parenting and it doesn’t even still mean that anymore. So all these labels, I just feel like I don’t know what they are.
But the part of sleep training that I would not recommend or just wouldn’t feel right to me. I don’t have any judgment of people and I feel like how can there even be controversy around parenting? It’s really what helps you and what speaks to you, what resonates with you. And you should be able to do that or try it at least, no matter what other people are saying. I don’t understand why there would be arguments about anything to do with parenting. But to me, training sounds like it’s some regimented approach. Like you said, I’m not going to put somebody else’s rhythms on my relationship with my child. My family’s rhythms, I want to find my child’s rhythm. So what doesn’t feel comfortable to me about sleep training is that It’s like they’re saying this is the set thing that you do to get this unique individual to sleep. And I just can’t see how that would work in terms of thinking of our babies that way in the long term, or even in the short term. It doesn’t seem to be a relationship-centered approach, which is what I believe in.
Hari Grebler: I agree. I don’t feel like RIE is behind sleep training. I’m not. You’re not. And what is sleep training? Sleep training to me is a set of rules, like you say, and it’s putting the baby in and letting the baby be. And they talk about all kinds of things.
Janet Lansbury: What do they talk about? I don’t really know. I haven’t researched it.
Hari Grebler: Well, leaving the baby to cry, and I feel like there’s a difference between a five-minute cry in your arms or even longer in your arms. I feel like that’s different than a baby being by themselves. The question that we were talking about earlier, I just don’t think that they have to be by themselves.
Janet Lansbury: But also there’s different kinds of cries and there’s cries that are not that distressed. And you could say, “You seem like you’re having a hard time getting to sleep. I’m going to go wash my hands or whatever and I’ll be back to check on you in a few minutes.” I don’t see anything wrong with that. It’s not like I’m going in the hall, looking at my watch and going, okay, I’ve got to do 10 minutes and I’m faking it. It’s not like an artificial, contrived thing. It’s just, Okay, let’s work together here. I wanted to go do this. It feels like it’s not helping you to have me here right now, maybe you need to let go a little. So let’s try that.
Hari Grebler: It’s tricky because everybody wants the baby to go to sleep, to be asleep. It’s such a big subject, it’s so hard. I mean, someone said, why don’t you do a workshop on sleep? And really and truly, I want to work individually with people on sleep. And I think the things we’ve said here are good starts. I think it’s good in the beginning, if I do a prenatal, what I can tell people is try not to create a habit that wasn’t there before. Don’t create a need that’s not a need. So that’s like bouncing on the ball.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah. Think in terms of the bigger picture right from the beginning.
Hari Grebler: Yeah. You don’t have to start that. Don’t make it so like, Oh, they’ve got to get to sleep! like that.
Janet Lansbury: But I mean, let’s be honest, I definitely wanted my day to end with little kids. I was ready for them to be asleep and my day to end, and it was hard to feel like the day ended when they were still awake. So I did want my kids to sleep. But I just knew, or I’d learned, that they’re so aware, they’re reading everything, they’re feeling all your vibes. And there’s a letting go that has to start with us. If we don’t let go, they can’t let go. Even if we’ve got a lot on our minds, we kind of have to be with them and exhale and let it go, the agendas and everything. But I mean, I can’t say that I didn’t want them to get to sleep really badly.
Hari Grebler: I also wanted them to get to sleep. I mean, Magda wanted them to get to sleep. Magda was like, put the kids to bed and then go have dinner with your partner or your friends, have people over. She was really about balance for the adult and the child, together and apart. And I feel like I had that from her.
You can see some pictures of babies sleeping with such abandon. That is a real sign of I feel really good. And you see some kids that are holding onto something, just looking for something. And I don’t know, that seems harder. And even Pikler talks about the picture of the baby is kind of indicative of their day.
Janet Lansbury: I never heard that. Yeah, I was thinking Madeline used to sleep on her back with her hands clasped under her head and her elbows out, like she was sunbathing on the beach.
Hari Grebler: So she was relaxed. She’d had fresh air. She got to move her body. I mean, imagine trying to go to sleep and put your baby to bed after they’ve been in the swing, they’ve been in a walker, they’ve been in the stroller, in the car. All the different things that they’ve been in without ever stretching out. See what I mean by not being able to really separate it? Because as we talk about sleep, I keep hearing in my mind, Oh, someone’s going to think that we’re just throwing them in the crib and walking out of the room. But it isn’t like that. It just isn’t like that. It can be a happy, joyous, peaceful, just such a nice feeling to get into bed.
And Magda used to say, Just set the scene. It just gets calmer and calmer and calmer. And I’m mostly talking about the little ones, I really am. But I mean, as you do this with the little ones, you give more to the older ones in a sense. They need you more. Maybe you’re going to tell stories, maybe you’re going to sing songs, they’re going to have their bath. All those things are symbols for what’s happening next. And it’s important to start with the baby with those symbols. The bath is always good as a part of the ritual. First there’s dinner, then there’s the bath, then there’s the pajamas.
All those things are very intimate and close and full of the adult and the child, so separating isn’t so quick to go to sleep. I’ve just been with you, I’ve been talking to you. I’ve been asking for your foot and your hands to help with the pajamas. And we’ve been playful and we sang songs. By the time they go in the crib they’re like, Oh my God, stop talking to me. I’ve had it. They’re so filled up, in a good way, but then they also need their own time.
That’s why I always kind of feel a little bit sorry when people feel like they have to make them sleep. They don’t have that opportunity to feel before they sleep and have some fun before they sleep. My kids want to play around a little bit before they sleep or maybe they’re talking or I don’t know, they’re just doing something. And they wake up the same way, when they wake up in the morning. If you rush to them or they’re right there and you just get started, they just want to kind of hang and relax. I want to do that in my bed, I don’t want to get straight up. But we do that with babies all the time. We put ’em in, we want ’em to go straight to sleep. We get ’em up, we want ’em to come up and play.
My daughter cried for the first six weeks, cried, cried, cried. And I remember like, Oh my God, my son wasn’t like that. What’s happening here? And the moment that I stopped feeling that franticness when your tiny baby is crying so hard, which they do and nobody really tells you that they could cry for the first three months. When I realized number one, she was probably very tired. And number two, that I just had to relax, taking those deep breaths, sighing, just letting her. And that’s when we really started to turn that corner for her. I mean, lucky I did RIE because I didn’t put her in a swing and I didn’t try a ball and I didn’t try all the things. I just held her and let her cry when she needed it. And that was how we turned the corner.
Janet Lansbury: The good thing about that is it’s a lifelong approach right there that we can start early. I mean, the other things are only going to last a certain amount of time or we’re not going to be able to do them anymore, bouncing, swinging, rocking. But I’m not talking about the soft kind of rocking, more the rocking where there’s nothing about it that’s relaxing for the parent or the child. It’s just a way to get to sleep. All those things have a lifespan, but this idea of letting our babies share with us, you can tell all that stuff to me, that’s something we can take with us to the end with our kids.
Hari Grebler: And imagine crying and being rocked out of it instead of held. I feel like there’s a difference.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah. It’s like when you’re angry and somebody wants to just, Oh let me give you a big hug.
Hari Grebler: It’s also not allowing for the feelings, for the feelings of, This is really hard for me. I’m so tired and maybe I am too tired or whatever I am.
Janet Lansbury: Maybe there was too much going on today. Too many guests or people.
Hari Grebler: And then just being in your arms without an agenda.
Janet Lansbury: Yeah.
Hari Grebler: It’s hard. It’s really hard.
Janet Lansbury: It is hard. It’s hard, but it passes and we all find our way.
This was big for me, to get to hang out with you and talk with you and hear all your wisdom. I really appreciate it.
Before we go, you can find Hari on Instagram at Hari’s RIE Studio. And also, didn’t you say that you had something new that you’re offering for parents?
Hari Grebler: It’s called Hari’s House and I’m going to be showing my house, I’m welcoming you to my house. Everybody can come over. And I want to show the principles of Pikler RIE respectful parenting and how we translated it and what it looked like at our house. I have video, it’ll be like a workshop.
Janet Lansbury: So people can get an idea of how the whole day could look.
Hari Grebler: Yeah, the environment inside, environment outside, caregiving, free play, meals, just all the principles.
Janet Lansbury: That sounds great. Okay, good. Well everybody check that out. And it’s going to be on your Instagram, right? You’re going to show how to sign up?
Hari Grebler: Yeah, I just sent you a little link too.
Janet Lansbury: Oh, perfect.
Hari Grebler: Thanks, Janet.
Janet Lansbury: Alright, thank you, Hari. And we’ll talk again soon.
Hari Grebler: Okay, great.
Janet Lansbury: Alright, bye.
Hari Grebler: Bye.
